Episode 1: Work Was Never the Curse

A conversation with Lucas Cecilio, featuring Tayu and producer D’Marcus.

Introduction

Lucas: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. We are so excited. I woke up at 5 in the morning today, which is something rare, but something I'm trying to do more often. Drove to a studio at our church, and I'm very excited for this morning.

Some friends of mine have been encouraging me, nudging me in the direction of starting a podcast. So here we are today. This is the first episode of whatever I'm going to call this — the Lucas Cecilio Podcast, the whatever podcast. I'm sure we'll come up with a name, but I'm excited to be here.

It's always easier for me to engage in conversations with friends who know me and can trigger the right thinking in me. So I was thinking — if I were to do a podcast, would I want to be by myself, just talking in front of a camera or with a mic in my hand? And I realized that's not really who I am. I'm very much a people person. I like being in deep conversations with friends.

On the way here, I was chatting with a friend of mine from Brazil, and I was remembering how I'd drive to his house almost every other day. He lived about fifteen minutes away, and we'd get some hot dogs from a cart nearby and just talk until one or two in the morning. I miss those days, but that's who I am.

So I thought about a structure where I have a friend who can ask me questions, and based on that question, I'll freestyle for five minutes, ten minutes, or a whole hour. Today I have two friends with me. Marcus is our producer — thank you, brother, for doing this. And my friend Tayu, who just became a youth pastor two weeks ago. He loves the church, loves the Lord, and he knows me well. He's going to be throwing some good stuff at me. Appreciate you, man.

Tayu: Absolutely, bro. It's an honor, Lucas. I'm grateful for our friendship, and for the ability to wrestle through things in a way that's authentic and honest. One thing I really honor in you — you are far from a narcissist.

Lucas: Wow.

Tayu: I think everyone has a little narcissistic tendency, maybe, but that's just not who you are. You're not trying to build a platform to stroke your ego. You're genuinely wrestling with things before the Lord. So I'm curious — what's the gap you think this conversation is filling?

The Tension Between Faith and Entrepreneurship

Lucas: Oh man. Let's start here — what's the tension?

Tayu: I love the word tension.

Lucas: In the Greek mindset, there was this way of perceiving the world where reality is divided into different realms. Think of Plato's cave — the ideal chair or the ideal table exists in the realm of ideas, which is spiritual, and then something is birthed out of that into the material realm. In that worldview, the spiritual world is good, superior — the material is lesser.

One of the craziest things God ever does is become matter. God is spirit, superior, and yet he takes on matter. Now he's material. But I thought the material world was bad? Well, God calls it good.

Here's the biggest tension I sit in. I'm an entrepreneur. I was born one — always had big vision. When I was twelve years old, I remember sitting in my friend's backyard with a piece of chalk, drawing out the blueprint, at least in my mind, of what an ice hockey center could look like. That's always been my mind.

But here's the tension: I love podcasts, I listen to a lot of them, and there's not a lot of people talking about entrepreneurship from a theological place. I can't think of many. And I believe one reason is that a Platonic worldview crept into the church early — even in the first century. The apostle John, in his first letter, is confronting the Gnostics, who believed the man dying on the cross couldn't really be Jesus, because matter didn't make sense to them spiritually.

From the beginning of the church, there's been this bifurcated worldview — spiritual good, material not so good — and so people in ministry end up seen as higher on some social hierarchy. That's nonsense. That's a pagan mindset, not a Christian one. God calls every son and daughter a priest. You could be a plumber, a social media influencer, a high school student listening right now — you are called by God equally, to bear fruit, to be fruitful, to multiply, to subdue.

I've sat in that tension for years because I've always felt lonely in it. I'm a pastor, I love the church — I'm literally in seminary right now, I'm a theology guy — but I'm also an entrepreneur, and I've always been one. I've been in church work since I was seventeen. I just turned thirty-two yesterday, so that's fifteen years, half my life.

Tayu: Happy birthday.

Lucas: Appreciate that. So — how do I merge that with entrepreneurship? Is there room for it? Well, there is. If the material world is good, because God made it good, then entrepreneurs can literally help redeem things for the glory of God. I sit on that tension all the time.

Why the Sunday-Monday Gap Exists

Tayu: That's real, man. I grew up in the church, and one of the things you felt — sometimes it even felt reinforced — is this disconnection from Sunday to Monday. Sunday's the holy day, we get dressed up, we hear the word. But if you're not one of the people leading a small group or on the worship team or holding the mic, it can feel like God didn't have as great a call for you in the kingdom. Why do you think that separation exists?

Lucas: We should go deeper on that — a hundred percent. The biggest reason is we separate the spiritual world and the material world. People see the building itself as though God is more present there than he is with you driving your car — even though God himself said he never wanted to dwell in buildings made of brick, he dwells in the hearts of human beings. The highest of heavens can't contain him, yet he mystically dwells in his people.

Now, mystically, God is more present in the Sunday gathering — I can't take communion by myself, because the Eucharist was designed for the saints to partake together. So there is something uniquely present there. But that place was meant to empower people to go into the world on Monday. If we think Sunday exists just to "get pumped up" for the week, that's nonsense. We're empowered on Sunday for the sake of Monday through Saturday.

I'm a charismatic guy, but I was reading a book last semester for a seminary class called Water from a Deep Well — it traces the spiritual formation movement from the first century to evangelicalism. There's a chapter on the sacraments where the author describes how the builders of the great cathedrals designed those massive windows so that during Mass, the light shining through would feel like God himself overlapping the congregation. I wept reading that. I've been a Christian my whole life and never saw it that way.

There's so much richness in the Christian tradition — no wonder there's a renewal happening now, in Europe too, and kids are leaning toward more traditional expressions of the faith. Because it's rich. So yes, we take communion on Sunday — but that's meant to empower us to live like Christ once we wake up Monday morning. The Hebrews in the Old Testament didn't even have categories for "spiritual" versus "natural." It was all intertwined. God is overlapping every space.

Tayu: I love this topic, bro. What you're describing is a paradigm shift — there's real power in that. What if the power of God can move through your thoughts and creativity at work? What if there's blessing in business deals, in the people right in front of you? I think there's so much to unpack here. What's the cost of this conversation not happening? What's the cost of people not making this shift?

The Cost of Getting This Wrong

Lucas: Great question. Here's the cost. I hear this constantly in personal conversations — people who see their work as, first, a means to pay the bills, and second, a means to pay for a lifestyle. Once those are covered, they don't want to work anymore. There's a real desire, especially in our generation and even more in Gen Z, to retire at forty and sip margaritas in the Bahamas. But then what — what are you doing for the next thirty, forty, fifty years?

That comes from a mindset where work was badly interpreted as the curse. Go read Genesis — work was not the curse. Ibuprofen is the curse. Back pain is the curse. The friction of trying to make something work, while you're distracted, while maybe you're wrestling with ADHD and it's hard to get an idea off the page — that's the curse. Work itself is divine. God created human beings to work.

So the cost of not having this conversation is a generation of people who see their job only as a means to an end — and once that end is covered, their minds suffer atrophy, because we were made to co-create with God through our work. That's the cost.

Tayu: Clip that for Instagram. What I'm hearing is you're trying to reconnect faith to work — collapsing the old secular-versus-sacred divide. Would you frame it that way?

Lucas: For the Christian, there is no secular anymore — it's all sacred. In Genesis 1:26–28, God tells mankind to fill the earth and subdue it — to look at every square inch of this planet and fill it with his wisdom, his glory, his presence, the excellence and beauty and truth of his kingdom. It doesn't matter if you're a nurse, a plumber, an electrician, a police officer, a pastor. Honestly, more than half of my job as a pastor is administrative work — mundane stuff. That's still sacred work. If you're a barista pulling a latte, especially here in Portland where the baristas are great — that's sacred work too.

Why This, Why Now

Tayu: That transitions well into my next thought. We both know people who've experienced real success and put in a ton of work, but there's an emptiness attached to it for some of them. I'd love to hear — why is this such an important thing for you right now? Where is this passion coming from? And where are you trying to go with it?

Lucas: My dad just retired a year ago after decades working for the government. My grandfather on my dad's side also worked for the government, but on my mom's side, my grandfather ran a small coconut water business — he was a salesman. My aunt's in sales to this day. My mom could sell you sand if she had to. But none of us ever connected that with entrepreneurship. We didn't have the mindset for it, partly because there's less of an entrepreneurial culture in Brazil, and less investing in the stock market there. There are a lot of entrepreneurs in Brazil who don't know they're entrepreneurs, because the culture around it hasn't existed — though the internet is changing that now.

I moved to the States in 2015 — ten years ago — and I was thinking like an entrepreneur without anyone around me naming it in me. That's not on them; none of us grew up in that mindset. It's changing now, but it wasn't there fifteen years ago.

The short version: I came to the States, studied theology at Portland Bible College, graduated, met my wife — we've been married seven years, our daughter is almost a year and a half. I went back to school and I'm now at Western Seminary — about a third of the way through the degree. I have one of the greatest privileges of my life pastoring high school students.

But the real trigger came in a spiritual formation class — I think it was Christian Living with Dr. Andrew Pack — where Dr. Chuck Connery, the president of Western Seminary, gave a two-hour lecture on a theology of work that blew my mind. Without knowing it, he gave flesh to bones that had already been forming in my heart. I emailed him afterward, and he actually wrote back. We've had coffee three times now, with a fourth scheduled, and he's been guiding and coaching me, giving me material to study.

So now felt like the time. My confirmation was simply: let me ask Marcus, let me ask Tayu if they'd jump into this with me. If yes, this is the timing. And here we are, recording at six in the morning.

Who This Is For

Tayu: I imagine there are stories and people on your mind as you think about this — an audience, for lack of a better word. Who does Lucas Cecilio want to pour into?

Lucas: Great question. Starting with the two of you in this room. Tayu — twenty-nine years young, a youth pastor now, and also the founder of a nonprofit called Two Coins, with a deep heart for the lost and for entrepreneurs and business people. You're helping form the next generation while sitting right at that intersection of ministry and entrepreneurship yourself.

Marcus — also entrepreneurial, extremely musically talented. When he showed me what he's actively working on, I told him, this is a million-dollar idea. His response was, "I don't know if I want to make money with it."

Tayu: Bro, who thinks like that?

Lucas: He does. And he's a husband, a father, an entrepreneur, a musician, and loves the Lord.

Then there's a third group — friends of mine in social media, in Brazil, in California — twenty-somethings making real money in the social media space but struggling to find structure. Some of them are building real, flourishing culture. For others, it's just a fun way to get paid, and the question becomes: what are you doing with that money? If that's you and this is hitting you — God is calling you right now.

Then there's the person who just graduated high school and is starting a trade — becoming a plumber or an electrician. They love the Lord, they're going to work a blue-collar job people might dismiss because they're not "preaching." Let me tell you — you are a priest of the living God.

And there's someone like my friend Anaya, a movie director and screenwriter who just released a film.

So in other words, I'm speaking to pastors and entrepreneurs who see the merge of both in themselves — people who sense real potential in their lives but wonder, am I the only one thinking this way? It's the Elijah paradox — "Lord, I'm here all alone" — and God says, there are seven thousand who haven't bowed the knee to Baal. You're not alone. This podcast is for you.

What Lucas Is Hopeful About

Tayu: That's real. Honestly, I have a lot of peace, a lot of rest, a lot of hope right now — and I want to hear what you're hopeful about.

Lucas: I'll answer that broadly. I believe that before Jesus returns, he's going to find a generation of Christians who were able to manage wealth for his glory and were never compromised by it. That's my biggest hope. We haven't seen that yet — not one person here or there, but something close to mainstream across the global church: Christians who make money for God's glory, manage it for his glory, and hold a kingdom perspective on their jobs.

Money reveals the condition of the heart — Jesus talks about money more than he talks about hell, more than he talks about prayer. Every time money increases, some condition of the heart gets exposed. I don't think we're fully ready yet. But when we are able to handle what God has promised to release, that's a sign of maturity — maybe one of the clearest signs that the bride is ready for the bridegroom.

Tayu: I don't want to gloss over that — that's not a simple hope, that's a generational one. It requires time, intentionality, community. I want to go deeper on one thing: what do you think is the best use of time right now, in regard to work?

Counting Our Days: Time, Rest, and Sabbath

Lucas: Before we started recording, you brought up Psalm 90 — "Teach me to number my days, that I may gain a heart of wisdom." I think that's the practical step, and it has at least two dimensions.

The first is awareness — not living numb, clocking in and out, going home, binge-watching something, and calling that rest. A lot of what we think of as rest — lying on the couch, scrolling — isn't actually restful. It might even leave us more tired. I'm not saying don't do it, just that it's not the most rest-filled activity. So: teach me to be aware, not numb. Teach me to notice where you've been in the last three hours, the last thirty minutes of my life.

The second dimension is time management — managing time well enough to have margin for rest. And the goal of rest isn't rest for its own sake — it's to energize and equip us for work.

Here's a small pushback: Sabbath is beautiful, and I think we have to practice it. But if we're not working six days a week, there might be a problem — Genesis says work six days, rest the seventh. I'm not saying you can't take two days; I usually take two, though rarely both fully off. But there's a real gap between people working fifteen or twenty hours a week and then wanting a full Sabbath. Sabbath is meant to empower us for good work across the other six days.

Tayu: That resonates. I recently made a pretty massive career shift — I was a computer engineer for four and a half years, and my schedule looks completely different now. One thing I've had to figure out growing into adulthood is that a lot of the things I need energy for aren't things I get paid for. It's work to clean the bathroom. To frame it back to you — I have a five-day work week, but that sixth day is laundry, dishes, cleaning, the gym, organizing my life. And part of my day off is spent maintaining friendships and relationships I don't get to maintain through work — hearing people's stories, carrying burdens with them. That's work too. Sabbath, for me, is becoming less about not thinking about anything, and more about—

Lucas: Delighting in the Lord. That's it right there. The idea isn't that everyone should just hustle six days straight — but ideally, you have five days working your job, whether full-time or, if part-time, using the extra time to study or improve yourself. The sixth day is for errands, chores, running your household. Jordan Peterson talks about this — people trying to change the world who can't clean up their own bedroom. Clean your room first. Then the seventh day is for three things: delight, rest, and worship.

Doers, Not Just Hearers

Tayu: "Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22. (reads James 1:22–26)

Lucas: There it is — James. And that's your middle name, right?

Tayu: It is. And I think what you're saying matters, because school is work too — if you don't have a full-time job but you're in school, that's real work.

Lucas: Absolutely. Don't spend your days in leisure and laziness, playing video games on the couch, when you could be doing something productive — a full-time job, full-time school, or both. A lot of people are vibing Monday through Friday and then requesting a Sabbath. If you're not working or studying hard — do you even need a Sabbath?

Tayu: I've noticed I enjoy my Sabbath more after a genuinely full, productive week. When I worked and tended and kept things — to use your Genesis language — it let me delight more organically in the things of God. There were seasons where I didn't act on things I wanted to create, and I felt paralyzed, disconnected from part of myself. All I needed to do was go work.

Work as the Cure for Anxiety

Lucas: As you were talking, I was thinking about Proverbs — "Commit your work to the Lord, and he will establish your plans." One translation of "plans" ties to the mind itself, and "work" there even carries the sense of tilling the land. So there's something about committing your habits, your daily disciplines, your routine to the Lord — and the byproduct is that he establishes your thinking.

A lot of the anxiety people are carrying right now traces back to work — or the absence of it. We have a generation sitting on the couch, not working, and it's no wonder they're full of mental noise, stress, and a lack of purpose. Here's a hard truth: the solution isn't only therapy. It's work. Go work somewhere, work hard, and your thoughts will be established.

Tayu: You're not being insensitive to the reality of anxiety — you're acknowledging it's real, and saying it deserves a real solution. And the real solution might be real work. It might be doing something you don't even like — until you learn to like it, or until you get to do something you do like. There's healing in that tilling, that straining.

Lucas: A hundred percent. And to be clear — I'm not saying people shouldn't go to therapy. Please, go to therapy. But consider this: counseling is one of the most sought-after degrees today. Is it possible that's connected to a generation that's become so individualistic, so introspective, so focused on our own trauma and our own story, that we're forgetting our fellow man and the work we're called to do for their benefit? If you're struggling, please seek medical and professional help — but also look at your life and ask: what am I working for? Is it for the good of others? Because if not, that might be the missing key.

Closing

Tayu: Drop the mic, brother. I think we got somewhere in this conversation — dense enough that it might require a re-listen, some notes, and hopefully some action. Any closing thoughts?

Lucas: I'm going to pray, and then we'll see you guys next time. If anything in this episode stirred something in you and you want to go deeper, email me — Lucas at LucasCecilio.com, my first and last name. I'd love to keep the conversation going.

Wherever you are, if you're able, close your eyes and open your hands like you're receiving a gift from Jesus.

Father God, I ask your presence to fill us, Lord. Fill every listener, everywhere they are in the world. Establish their thoughts. Establish their minds as they work, as they labor for the flourishing of the world. I ask for clarity. I ask for a greater sense of purpose. Help them see their jobs as priests presenting their bodies as living sacrifices before your altar. Bless us today, in Jesus' mighty name. Amen.

Tayu: Amen, amen.

Lucas: Thank you all for listening to today's episode. We love and appreciate you. Shout out to Tayu again for this conversation, and to Marcus for producing. See you guys next time.